Frieren: Beyond Journey's End Rewatch Episode 25 Discussion

**Rewatch: Blu-Ray Version**

One thing that is interesting is the "bad habit" Frieren has when she stops detecting mana when firing a spell. Also, it is interesting how Zooltraak is a new spell for elves, making it an advantage for Fern to use it. As the fundamentals for Fern are ingrained with Zooltraak, while for Frieren they are not. It is a minor disadvantage to Frieren's long lifespan, but any disadvantage they need to pounce on when fighting Frieren's clone.

Picking up from the other flashback, we see them discussing strategy, which reminds Frieren of doing the same for bosses of dungeons with Himmel's party. Even though conquering dungeons is a lost art, it is the most exciting part of tackling a dungeon.

As Flamme has passed away, Frieren seems to be the one to pass on her will. The conversation is, should magic be taught to those who have talent, or should anyone learn magic? We know with all the "useless" grimoires that Frieren picks up that she sides with Flamme. Series's argument is fair when looking at magic as privilege. I do think different levels of magic should be looked at. Common everyday spells to improve one's life should be free to utilize, but more dangerous advanced magic should be restricted.

I loved the scene with Serie & Frieren walking where we see the child version of Flamme. For these two elves, Flamme made an impact in her short lifespan that might have been more than what either Serie or Frieren did in their whole life up to the point when the flashback takes place. This highlights the beauty of the limited lifespan of humans because they can't wait 1000 years. Humans will be more motivated to push with the limited time they have now.

As such, Flamme is the spark, and then we see with Frieren teaming up with Himmel they defeat the Demon King. Which now sparks the age of humans. With Serie hinting a human mage could kill Frieren. That human mage could be Fern, which could lead to the possibility that Fern can actually kill Frieren's clone.

This episode adapted chapters 52 & 53. The whole flashback scene between Frieren & Series was so beautifully animated. It significantly elevated how that scene was portrayed in the manga.

**First-timer, subbed**

So all the survivors are banding together. What about those three who actually defeated some replicas though? They're suspiciously missing from the scene. Hmm.

I found it a little amusing that Lavine's only contribution is offering up information from her brother. At least it's believable, if convenient. Doesn't do much to make me like these two boring characters any more or find their hair pulling antic any funnier than thus far.

I didn't get how they figured out that Frieren stops detecting mana when she's casting a spell. I saw Fern suddenly attack her and Frieren defend against it reflexively. But how did they notice her not detecing mana at that same time? Was that shown or indicated in any way? Or was it just that they (the more senior mages anyway - our boring girls missed it too) could magically tell and we're only told this via dialogue? Want to make sure I didn't miss something.

I love Frieren's soft smile whenever she remembers her time with Himmel and the Hero's party. It's so sweet.

Once I understood their strategy for defeating the Frieren replica, I was trying to figure out how they would stretch it out to fit a whole episode because that last shot needed to be the climax obviously. Glad they didn't drag out the fight needlessly and instead gave us the flashback between Serie and Frieren.

That flashback was quite interesting and illuminated the characters of Flamme, Frieren and Serie, and their motivations nicely.

I liked this episode quite a bit. I do miss Stark though. Will we only get to see him again at the very end of the season?

Something that's been on my mind the past few episodes is the lack of contrast between Frieren and her doppelganger. You can see in the fights that other mages have anger, frustration, amusement, all sorts of reactions and emotions, while the clones are completely stonefaced. Meanwhile Frieren and hers have the same absolute emotionless focus. I don't think it was an accident that in certain shots with poor lighting, it was hard to tell who was who.

**First Timer**

Oh, here's another thought I keep forgetting to mention. I wonder what spell Serie was looking for, and never found.

I bet Serie has always considered Frieren a disappointment.

I think this show uses more umlauts on average than actual German.

okay, so, they need Not-Frieren to attack somebody and Laufen blinks behind her and kills her....Well, that was my plan.

The girls were perpetually fighting the entire time.

ooh! what is this scene going to be? I've been wondering, for several episodes (because we are progressing so slowly) what the conversation between Frieren and Serie would be. Would Serie ask if Frieren came for the gift she had rejected? Would Frieren say she just came to get her passport stamped? Do we now see that she had already asked for a spell in the past?

Again, elves think humans and evles can't understand each other, but humans understand elves pretty well.

So, Flamme's dream of world of driven, hurried, busy little human mages created Frieren's paradise of 10,000 random bits of magic to discover.

[spoiler] Fern kills Frieren!

3) So, any opinion about Frieren's weak point?

I'm not sure how other mages are supposed to be able to tell if another mage has "stopped detecting mana".


edit:

> Christ. OK, uhh well what we’ll do, I’ll run in first, uh…gather up all the eggs. We can kinda just, ya know, blast them all down with AOE. Um, I will use Intimidating Shout to kinda scatter ’em, so we don’t have to fight a whole bunch of them at once. Uhh… when my Shouts are done, I’ll need Anthony to come in and drop his Shout too, uh… so we can keep them scattered and not to fight too many. Um… when his is done, Bas of course will need to run in and do the same thing. Uh…we’re gonna need Divine Intervention on our mages, uhh so they can AE, uh so we can of course get them down fast, ’cause we’re bringing all these guys. I mean, we’ll be in trouble if we don't take them down quick. Uhh, I think this is a pretty good plan, we should be able to pull it off this time

**First Timer: Beyond Dubbed’s End**

He *died?*

Thinking about it now, when <Copper Coins> (danmei) came out, there was discussion around the lack of bald protagonist main characters in animation. I know a lot of cool bald side characters—Bly will be added to the list—but beyond Saitama (*One Punch Man*), Xuan Min (*Copper Coins*), Takahide Kujou (*One Lustful Night Mingling with a Priest*), and Aang (*Avatar: The Last Airbender*), I think that’s all I know. Don’t watch that second to last one in public though.

I’m surprised Denken wouldn’t have a healing scripture. Huh.

Eeeeee my otome yuri ship 🫶🏾

Lawine’s longhaired brother is ***mine***. But who is the hooded hottie behind him? Is he a priest?

That’s even hotter, haiii daddy 😚 I mean. Good day, Holy Father 😇

Noooo, did daddy die 💔

If that flaw is a minic

So help me ***gawd*** please no

Why, Fern? Why is she standing by the wall?

Okay, phew, it’s not about a mimic.

The piano music needs a trigger warning, I had flashbacks to those weird ass PSCA “Arms of the Angels” commercials that would show the most depressed animals to remind you to donate to them.

Evan Call, you play with my feelings too much, sir.

“Hungover” *looks like a damn zombie*

Ooooh lawd he a coming. That’s one chonky little fucker.

My yuri ship choosing violent to show love ❤️

I’m cackling at them in the background. Lawine is a strong young lady!

WAIT.

>Humans have written off magic as the stuff of demons

So…what are demons then??? Are they mages? *Waaaaaaaaait* fr though don’t lie, are demons actually mages who took it too far?

Oho. So Denken has a relation to Flamme. Flamme created this system. She was powerful enough that the emperor listens to her. That’s impressive politicking from her.

Oh Serie is one of those people, okay.

Serie sounds like such mom with her daughter Flamme.

…are we sure Heiter didn’t like momentarily die?

Nice symbolism. Frieren facing the new age (the sunrise), Serie turning her back on it, but the sun will continue to ride as not even she can stop progress even if she abhors what’s to come.

***

**Spell for Additional Thoughts**

Just so bizarre how healing magic is done, but I’m hoping that it’s intentional because it’d be dope if there was something afoot with this.

Frieren noting the differences of how they both understand and respond Zoltrak parallels to some of the issues I see in the knowledge/response gap between generations. It’s so interesting to me how I grew up in a prime generation where we “grew up” alongside now big name techs and websites in their infancy. Our computer classes integrated so much over the years. The back half of my formative years brought with it more discussion on mental health, defining and recognizing and addressing abuse, the large spectrum of queerness that exists internationally and in different languages, more visibility on the discrimination minority and marginalized communities faced in media. It was and is so normal for me to use certain vocabulary and respond to these issues and topics.

But my friends who are especially in their 40s all the way to 90s, a lot of this wasn’t natural in their formative years. It wasn’t normal; it wasn’t part of their ecosystem. Sure, they learned about things as they were adults—but there is still this noticeable lag in how they address, respond, and navigate to certain topics. It’s probably most noticeable in how they all raised their families versus their parents treatment of them.

It’s vice versa as well. There are issues and topics that were very normal in their formative years, but it takes me a minute to contextualize that before I can effectively respond because those issues weren’t my everyday growing up. I was only later introduced to them when my life was already built around XYZ.

Seeing those discrepancies in comprehension is met with, what I see, aggression of why someone simply can’t “get it”. But some people didn’t have this as their normalcy. They can’t ***change*** that. But they ***can*** keep moving forward to be more willing to listen and grow and understand. That should be what counts.

Flamme continues to surprise me. I wonder, again, if she was involved with the church and partitioning healing magic from magery and putting it directly with the church.

***

**QotD**

1. No minds, so no mind control.
2. They act within whatever confines their original has.
3. I wonder if Flamme had the same weakness.
4. Life-altering.
5.
6. If it makes someone smile, it’s not useless.
7. I see the parallels. But maybe my conspiracy theory brain is thinking there is more to that.

**Repeat Journeyer**

"She was nothing but an apprentice I raised on a whim."

Serie, the world's oldest tsundere.

It's quite obvious that Serie really loved Flamme, even if she won't admit it. We can see that Serie raised Flamme from childhood, much like Frieren did Fern. I'm pretty certain that her walk with Frieren down memory lane was a way of mourning for Serie. (A sad observation: Frieren isn't the only one to remember Flamme as an adult, but Serie is the only one in the world who remembers that wide-eyed rambunctious child with a silly dream.)

And Serie said that elves can ignore a decision for a millennium if they want to. Now, a millennium later, she accepted Flamme's request and opened a mage training association. Even if she is still training up mages meant for war, not peace.

And we learn Frieren's biggest weakness. But it's such a ridiculously small gap, it's pretty much impossible to exploit for anyone that's not Fern.

We also get a glimpse of the terrifying true power of Frieren the Slayer.

> 1) How does mind control work on on the replica creatures? Or not working at all due to its nature?

As Edel proved, quite ineffective.

> 2) Can they act on their own, or following some kind of pre-defined pattern?

They appear to be robots following programming based on the originals.

> 3) So, any opinion about Frieren's weak point?

It's funny that everyone thinks of it as a beginner's failing.

> 4) Spellcasting time how crucial can be?

Quickest draw gives a huge advantage.

> 5) How did Flamme foresee the future regarding the usage of magic?

She believed Humanity could be capable of great things.

> 6) How useless that flower magic to you?

It's fun and pretty. Not much practical use, but it doesn't have to be.

> 7) Does Serie's words became a relaity now, as only a human can "kill" Frieren?

Frieren lost eleven magical bouts before, most of which were humans.

**Rewatcher (Dub)**

* Kanne saying that Frieren and Fern rushed in before they could team up is absolutely ridiculous. Let’s stop acting like Frieren and Fern ran at the speed of light into the dungeon to deliberately ignore everyone. They walked in as carefree as possible. The writer clearly just wanted it to be Frieren, Fern, and Sense because it was more convenient that way. Honestly, I’m glad Kanne and Lawine didn’t join them, it would have been insufferable. We already saw more than enough of them during the first exam.
* I also wanted to comment on something Frieren says right before entering the dungeon in episode 23. She says, “Everyone’s made their choice. They know who they trust.” Yeah, Frieren, let’s stop bullshiting. Denken was very clearly willing to have you two, or anyone else, join his group. I’m not as annoyed by this point as the previous one, though, because it mostly comes across as Frieren being socially awkward and trying to justify the situation to herself.
* I have to say, **Frieren’s weakness that’s revealed this episode felt pretty stupid.** She’s been training for over a thousand years and is fully aware of this flaw, yet she somehow never fixed it. What makes it even more unconvincing is that the show frames this as a common mistake even among apprentice mages. If that’s the case, then it makes the weakness even more far-fetched. It becomes hard to believe that someone like Frieren would still suffer from something beginners commonly struggle with. It just makes the writing feel off and hurts the overall quality of the show.
* **I have very mixed feelings about this episode overall**. There are great concepts here, but the execution and dialogue often don’t work, which has become a recurring issue with this exam arc. That said, I really loved the conversations between Frieren and Serie.

**Rewatcher (Sub)**

A bit of a slower, more deliberate pace this time as we see everyone come together to solidify Fern's plan she mentioned last time. It was pretty satisfying seeing everyone work together like that, as Denken originally said they should. The flashbacks were good here, especially the one with Serie showing how the growth of magic was heading in a direction she wasn't really comfortable with. But of course it's a direction that was not only inevitable given Flamme's influence, but also necessary in the present in order to overcome Frieren's duplicate.

Rewatcher, first time dub watcher

Ah yes, Flamme’s post-death flashback plus the Frieren double battle. I don’t have a whole lot to say, just LOOK at everything. One of the most beautifully animated shows, and I think this episode in particular stood out on my first watch

Excited to see how this all wraps up soon (in particular cuz im a little fuzzy on the details), and then… we’re onto season 2 proper in a few weeks. Woohoo!

Rewatcher

It was nice to see how the Hero's Party handled a dungeon, and hilarious how Hieter was just tossed on a rock while still hung over. Yeah sure Serie keeps spouting that you don't care that much lie.

As a semi-serious response to people who are disappointed with the group not using a mimic to bait the clone. Would Frieren have left an unopened chest/mimic to actually use as bait before arriving at the bottom of the dungeon?

**3rd Ranked Rewatcher**

So today's episode is mostly split into two parts again, one part that deals with the larger group at the bottom of the labyrinth figuring out how to deal with the Freiren clone, and the other part spending more time in the past with Frieren and Serie.

The first part is mostly straight forward: How the fuck do we get passed the Frieren clone? Thankfully, a few more people joining this larger party have come to bring more knowledge: Kanna and Lawine managed to make it to the bottom together, and Lawine brought knowledge of the Spiegel monster; similarly, Edel's and Blei's sacrifices enable Dünste to reconnect with the larger party to share about the mindless nature of the replicas, meaning the plan to have Methode control Frieren is a no go.

In the end, the plan brought up at the end of yesterday's episode is the one chosen: Fern gets to be the one to take down the Frieren clone, with Frieren's assistance. All other examinees present (Denken, Richter, Laufen, Methode, Kanna, Lawine, and Dünste... am I missing anyone?) will be in charge of keeping back any remaining replicas that try to interfere, while Sense will twirl her hair and watch things on the sidelines.

One thing I love about this plan is that Denken immediately starts thinking about things in a very similar manner to Wirbel earlier: what are everyone's strengths and weaknesses? With each mage having their own speciality, this is where the true power of teamwork in this challenge really comes into play, making sure to have someone available who can target a clone's weak point, and the more mages you have available, the better chance you have of finding good match-ups.

Another great part here is getting to learn about Frieren's weaknesses, of which we learn two. The first (the bit about her not detecting mana for a moment when she casts a spell) is discussed quite a bit, and it seems like it's something of a personal failing that Frieren has mostly been able to get along with because people assume she doesn't make those kinds of juvenile mistakes. The second weakness, not being able to respond as immediately to a Zoltraak spell, is more about her being an elf and therefore Zoltraak being a relatively "new" spell as far as her mind in concerned, therefore not being able to respond as automatically to it as other spells.

On their own, both weaknesses are rather minor and difficult to exploit, but it's basically all that the group has to work with, so we'll have to hope it's enough.

It's while Frieren and Frieren Clone are fighting that we get the flashback scenes with Frieren and Serie, and these are definitely some of my favourite scenes of the show. In the past, Frieren comes to Serie again... this time alone. Flamme is dead, and Frieren has brought Flamme's will to Serie.

This is when we really begin to understand exactly how amazing Flamme is and what she's done for magic and humanity. It seems like humanity in general did not really use magic at all during this time period, seeing magic primarily as a tool used by demons. Flamme, trained by the elf Serie, was something of an outlier. However, Flamme somehow managed to make humans more curious and interested in magic during her lifetime, even going so far as to convince the Emperor (and in this time, the "Empire" takes up almost the entire continent) that magic was cool, and he allowed her to start formally training Imperial Mages as well.

Both Frieren and Serie see this for what it is, a huge advancement in magic for humanity that will likely cause humans to become much more powerful in the future, and will definitely cause magic to become significantly more widespread around the world. Serie rejects this future, but the young smiling Frieren embraces it.

That said, my absolute favourite part of this scene is definitely when Serie goes on her little tantrum rant and tears up the will, followed by Frieren immediate explaining that Flamme predicted she would do that.

[](#pointandlaugh)

In the past, Serie explains how humans will grow more powerful and that Frieren will have to be careful. It's the perfect moment to switch back to the present and the fight between Frieren and the Frieren clone, just in time for the clone to be ditracted for a fatal moment for Fern to send off a Zoltraak spell. Pew! And of course a short cliffhanger until tomorrow.

S1) Today's seiyuu is another prolific one, and rather versatile too! As I was going through her filmography, I was surprised to discover that the first role of her I recognised was a guy: Reg from Made in Abyss. Perhaps this helps to explain part of how I thought Serie was a guy at first when I first started watching this show, hah. She's also got a couple roles in GBF as both Farrah and Helel ben Shalem, though she hasn't done any FE work it seems.

1) Seems like that's a "not at all", indeed.

2) As far as we can tell, it looks like they more or less have their own free will to attack as they please, so long as they follow the overall instructions of the Spiegel.

3) Talked about above. Always interesting to see that even our lv99 1000+ year old mage can still have some weaknesses, but no one's perfect.

4) Seems pretty crucial indeed!

5) I think in this case it was primarily that she specifically looked to the kind of future that she wanted to exist and then did her utmost to make that dream come true.

6) Obviously it is the very best spell. I'm actually a hell of a lot more intrigued by non-battle spells in this show compared to battle magic that is the focus.

7) I don't think humans are the only ones who could conceivably kill Frieren, but I do think they have the best shot.

### Second-time watcher and your host (subs),

At this episode planning is all about devising a good plan to overcome this Spiegel and its replicas in order to finish this exam. The Frieren replica is the true boss here. Knowing her weakness is the real key to victory. Her weakest part of her is her back, because she nneds to more time to realize what is attacking behind her. Like in the past, she just blas the enemy into oblivion is her main job, and let other distract from her. And Fern is the ideal person for this job, because she is the only one who knows her really well. Some words from the past really came up thanks to this. Serie said there two things who can end her life: the demon king or a human.

As for the past, looks like Serie and Flamme had some major arguments regarding their worldviews, and as of what should do with magic. Even a flower field summon spell which is beautiful and only has aesthetic purposes, no wonder why Serie said useless, but that is from a pragmatic standpoint.

> 1) How does mind control work on on the replica creatures? Or not working at all due to its nature?

I have a feeling that magic creatures like mimics, golems and things like that are not autonomius creatures, and thus totally immune. But it is also differs from person what copied.

> 2) Can they act on their own, or following some kind of pre-defined pattern?

A pre-defined pattern with some deviation from internal influences.

> 3) So, any opinion about Frieren's weak point?

Since it is her back, it can be really fatal.

> 4) Spellcasting time how crucial can be?

A few seconds can mean a significant difference between life and death.

> 5) How did Flamme foresee the future regarding the usage of magic?

She was a visionary in her entire life. A true Prometheus.

> 6) How useless that flower magic to you?

From utility, pragmatic and practical reasons, yes.

> 7) Does Serie's words became a reality now, as only a human can "kill" Frieren?

Somewhat.